[HonestBabe]

#1018089

Greetings:
I’d like to share this information. It appears that I’ve been getting good results with ‘electroacupuncture’ and Chinese herbs for my nodule-caused hyperthyroid. My TSH levels went from .02 in November to .45 in February. My lab says normal TSH level is .49 to 4.70. So, I’m nearly there. I should mention that my testing for Graves disease has been negative and all past tests have been negative. My hyperthyroid is caused directly by hot nodules.I do not take any thyroid medication. My understanding is that the acupuncture stimulates healing and the Chinese herbs (a grandular substance that I dissolve in hot water) disintegrate the nodules so the thyroid can return to normal function. I think this two-pronged approach is a good one. I know there’s a lot of debate out there about alternative methods and their effectiveness, especially for GD. And I’m not saying this is everybody’s answer. I am saying that it seems to be my answer so far. My acupuncturist is very skilled, an M.D. and well trained in Chinese herbs. He has reported to me that his hyperthyroid patients do very well with this treatment. I know RAI is an answer for many to disintegrate nodules successfully. It may not be the only answer for some. Good Health and Healing to All. HonestBabe.

[Kimberly]

#1062630

A couple of very important points that posters need to be aware of…

1. HonestBabe can jump in if I am remembering incorrectly, but I believe that her T3 and T4 levels have always been in the “normal” range; it has only been the TSH that’s been out of range. Having suppressed TSH with normal T3/T4 is referred to as “subclinical hyperthyroidism.” Most docs will take a “wait-and-see” approach when dealing with subclinical hyperthyroidism, rather than initiating any type of treatment. TSH is an important part of the feedback loop that regulates thyroid hormone production – so it’s definitely a red flag if TSH goes out of whack – but TSH itself is NOT the same as thyroid hormones. The *immediate* danger to our system comes from having actual thyroid hormone levels that are too high. Having excessive levels of T3 and T4 in our system is what leads to complications such as bone/muscle wasting, heart issues, and thyroid storm. Having one’s TSH move into the “normal” range is definitely good news…but it’s really not the same thing as treating or curing hyperthyroidism

2. HonestBabe mentioned this, but I want to reiterate that she is not dealing with Graves’ Disease, but rather a “hot” thyroid nodule that started pouring out excess thyroid hormone on its own. Graves’ Disease, which is caused when the body’s own immune system mistakenly attacks healthy tissue, is a very different situation. Unfortunately, there are no alternative therapies at this time that have been *proven* to control hypERthyroidism due to Graves’ Disease. You will read cases on the Internet that certain individuals “cured” their Graves’ with some supplement or alternative treatment. The problem is that in some individuals, Graves’ will go into remission on its own…so there is no way to *prove* that these therapies made any difference at all. So the Foundation does not recommend abandoning conventional treatment in favor of *any* alternative therapy.

There is actually a division of the National Institutes of Health that is called the National Center for Complimentary and Alternative Medicine — and their mission is to look at alternative and complementary therapies from a science-based perspective. Hopefully, one day, we *will* have more concrete information on the effectiveness of alternative and complimentary therapies. In the meantime, abandoning conventional treatment for hyperthyroidism in favor of an alternative therapy can potentially create a life-threatening situation.

[HonestBabe]

#1062631

Hi Kimberly,
Yes, my T3 and T4 have always been normal. Yes, my diagnosis was NOT Grave’s disease. Yes, subclinical. My symptoms were fairly mild and this gave me time to look for options (surgery was one of them as well). I was not suggesting to anyone to abandon their traditional medical treatments. I’m suggesting that there may be options ‘outside of the box,’ as they say. It has become clear to me that Western doctors are not the only ones with answers for healing. Integrative Medicine that combines Western and Eastern treatments can be very effective. There are some published studies on PubMed that are interesting to read (Preliminary study on Chinese Herb induced apoptosis of thyrocytes in Graves’ disease http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11783196 ; Chinese Herbal Medicines for Hyperthyroidism http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17443591 ). While these clinical studies have some problems in protocols etc., still leave many questions, and may not be as conclusive as we’d like, they are not without merit. The more we learn, the healthier we become, East or West. HonestBabe.

[Bobbi]

#1062632

Anyone interested in this issue should pay particular attention to the studies mentioned above. In the first one, there were only 13 (yes, that is correct, THIRTEEN) participants. And in the second, while there were thirteen assessments done of lots of other studies, the studies themselves were considered of "low" value (by the authors). The conclusion the authors drew? "However, due to methodological limitations, we could not identify a well-designed trial to provide strong evidence for Chinese traditional herbal medicine in the treatment of hyperthyroidism. Thus, we currently cannot recommend any single preparation or formulation for clinical use."

TSH floats. TSH is not a constant number, even in healthy individuals. So, trying something for a brief period of time and seeing that there have been "changes" in TSH does NOT mean that whatever is being tried is, in fact, changing the TSH for that individual. That type of reasoning is known as post hoc reasoning, and is considered false reasoning. Just because one event or occurrance follows another one in time, it does not mean (as many assume) that the first event caused the second one. We all tend to do this type of reasoning from time to time. I think the most common one is when someone eats something new, and then gets sick a few hours later and will never, ever want to eat that particular food again. With my mother-in-law, that food was shrimp. With me it was moussaka. (I have, in fact, eaten moussaka again but it was many years later.) But just because we all do it, it does not mean we should use this type of reasoning when it comes to our medical decisions.

With good scientific studies, lots of people have to submit to the EXACT SAME protocol. (This is an inherent problem for Chinese medicine because there are no "standard" or "exact same" protocols typically.) There have to be CONTROLS. One type of control is that some folks, the control group, are not given the same protocol, but are given a placebo (an inert substance that should have no therapeutic effect), and then the two sets of participants are compared to see if there are differences. (Having a control group is not something that would be done with only thirteen participants in a study.) More importantly, even the researchers do not know who is being given what. This eliminates the post hoc problem. If there are differences between the control groups, and it is seen in a significant enough part of the ppopulation studied, scientists then are more sure that whatever changed was in fact caused by what was done.

[HonestBabe]

#1062633

Bobbi has some valid points about these studies. Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) has to run better trials. Yes, doctors must look to real scientific evidence for direction in treating disease. But I’m not a doctor; I function as a patient. I’m looking for an indication or possibility that this treatment might work for me. Yes, it’s taking a risk of failure but also a chance for success too. The fact that my TSH rose (not just floated) from .02 to .45 in 9 weeks of TCM treatment is very significant to me. And this was significant to my Endo too; he was very pleased with T3 and T4 levels. Something dramatic is going on. I gained some weight back and let me tell you there’s nothing false about that. My TSH numbers went as follows: In 2010, May through November(6 months) TSH decreased from .11 to .09 to .03 to .02 … Nine weeks later on TCM , at Februay test I’m at .45. The reality for me is that I’m on my way to normal thyroid levels; my body is changing; symptoms fading away. The only way this could be more real to me is when I go for my ultrasound and they find my nodules reduced in size … or completely gone. HonestBabe.

[sutan351]

#1062634

I’ve been thinking about looking into Acupuncture for my Eyes after dealing with worse Double Vision from Eye Muscle Surgery. Do you know of anyone that has any success with this treatment. Trying to find some information on the internet…but you know how that goes.

I’m 3 weeks post surgery (eye muscle), but now dealing with close up DV( never had before) and having to look a little sideways to see single (a little). Waiting on glasses today with ground in prisms and also considering Vision Therapy….before looking into a second surgery.

Thanks,

Sandy

[Kimberly]

#1062635

Hello – I actually know one other individual who is considering trying acupuncture for eye issues, although I have not seen any studies indicating that acupuncture can provide relief of TED symptoms. Here is some info on acupuncture from the National Center for Complimentary and Alternative Medicine.

http://nccam.nih.gov/health/acupuncture/

If you decide to go down this path, it’s *very* important to ensure that you are seeing a qualified practitioner, as complications can include infections and punctured organs.

[sutan351]

#1062636

Thanks Kimberly – Much appreciated.

We have a few folks in my area that come highly recommended. I’ll be sure to let you know how things go, if I proceed.

Sandy

[san70]

#1062637

Hello ~ I would be more interested in hearing of your alternative therapies. I too have a hot nodule and subclinical hyperthyroidism. I want to find another way!! What is electroacupuncture? Thanks! san

[HonestBabe]

#1062638

For San70: ElectroAcupuncture is traditional Chinese acupuncture but with the added energy of an very mild electric current attached to some of the needles (in my case, over the thyroid area but only on the surface of the skin; not deep at all). I’ve had acupuncture without the electrical stimulation as well. The value, I’m told, is that electro enhances your own electrical impulses for faster more effective healing. Chinese medicine works with the body’s natural energies for rebalancing and stimulation of healing energies within the body. It’s not painful at all. In fact, I have to say, I almost like it. Feels like a slight tingling. The Chinese herbs are a combination of about ten different herbs designed to dissolve the nodules, and I take those (mixed with hot water) every day like a tea. I also take Lemon Balm (at night for sleeping), which is supposed to be good for thyroid function. I’m going for more tests in April and will post my final results. My Endo doc is flipping out that I had such a jump in my TSH numbers, and he’s very curious to see the end results of the Chinese treatments. I decided to try Chinese medicine as a test before moving forward with traditional Western treatments. But you must also understand that my symptoms were mild and my hyperthyroidism is caused by hot nodules and not Grave’s disease, so this has bought me some time to explore options. Good Luck, San70, whatever path you choose. And I will add that prayer is an important part of my daily health. All the best, HonestBabe.

[snelsen]

#1062639

Thank you, Honest Babe! Interesting stuff.
It is CRITICAL that all who read your experience, do realize that you DO NOT have Graves.
Thank you very much for emphasizing this in your posts. Probably a good idea to mention that at the beginning of every post. You (and I, and everyone) would not a reader to make a quantum leap to try your strategies when they had Graves’ and their hyperthyroid state needed treatment with ADT’s and beta blockers to keep them safe from harm.
Good job!
Shirley

[takita123]

#1062640

There is recently an article online about thyroid disease and traditional Chinese medicine approaches that seem interesting if anyone wants to read about it: http://www.thyroid-info.com/articles/chinesemed.htm

I was diagnosed with Graves disease since early 2010 and then later developed thyroid eye disease, and also have other autoimmune problems for about 6 years. I was on methimazole and prednisone for the eye. I began treatment with Chinese medicine earlier this year and have been tapering off western drugs. I will share my story/progress with getting both western medical care and treatment with chinese medicine when I have time to write it up. Sorry I’ve been super busy with school. ” title=”Confused” /> I know this discussion was split off to a new thread, so I’ll post in the newer one.

Some important points to keep in mind for anyone seeking “alternative” treatment:*feel free to add*
1. You should NEVER abandon western medicine for alternative treatment. (Western medicine and any other "alternative" modalities work complementary to each other with the ultimate goal of YOU getting better.)
– Finding an endocrinologist who is open-minded and willing to work with you and monitor you can be rare, but bless those who are.
2. You should find a well-qualified and EXPERIENCED practitioner. (which is not as easy as it seems.)
3. Treatment should be safe. (A well designed treatment should not have much of side effect.)
4. Treatment (at least in Chinese Medicine) should be individualized. (that is how Chinese medicine is practiced, so don’t buy some random pre-made medicine online.)
5. Most importantly, you should see positive effect/improvements from your treatment. This should also be measurable with bloodwork (like TSH, FT4, TSI..etc.). (might seem obvious, but don’t be blinded or fooled by bogus claims/things out there.)

A side note if you are thinking about seeking treatment say with traditional Chinese medicine, you’ll probably be in the best situation if you did not have radioiodine treatment (RAI) or surgery…because the thyroid gland is not the problem, but the immune system and hormones are. Just like conventional medicine, different people will have different response. It’s important to know that it’s not a magic cure. I like to think about it just adding more "tricks in the healing bag".

It is my hope that medicine can be truly integrative in the future, taking the best of what modern medicine and traditional practices has to offer. Definitely more research needs to be done to better understand the disease, and to provide better and safer treatment for all of us with Graves disease and other autoimmune problems. ” title=”Smile” /> I wish everyone be well.

[baileyslp]

#1062641

Hi guys,
I just wanted to chime in on this discussion since I’ve had some experience w/ western medicine as well as chinese herbs and acupuncture in treating my Grave’s Disease. When I was initially diagnosed w/ Graves Disease my TSH was so low they couldn’t read it and my T3 and T4 levels were very high. I had most of the typical Grave’s symptoms, worst of which was the tachycardia (resting rate was up to 140/minute), anxiety, weight loss and shaking. When I finally got in to see the endo she was shocked that I hadn’t been hospitalized. I began taking methimazole and propanolol, as well as some herbal supplements given to me by my acupuncturist and naturopathic physician. I was on my western meds for about 4 months b/c the tachycardia was so bad. I had a huge dip in my TSH after a few months and actually went hypo. After that I went off all western herbs (we tapered my dosage, so it was gradual).

I continue to get my blood work done regularly and am on my herbal supports, which have really helped me a lot. I went off my herbs for a while as well, but then my TSH dipped and my T3/T4 elevated again, so I got back on my herbs (and are normal again). I receive acupuncture treatments regularly. My endo was completely shocked at how quickly my body responded to the medicine and herbs- she thought I would be on the medicine for about two years before trying to get off of them b/c I was ‘so hyper’. The first endo I saw told me not to even attempt remission b/c of my thyroid levels (I promptly got another doctor).

I agree that acupuncture and herbs may not be for everyone, but I do think it is a good option and I know there is some positive research out there on treating hyperthyroid w/ acupuncture/herbs. I’m still recovering from the Graves and have to watch myself to make sure I don’t overdo it, but overall I know I’ve been helped by the herbs/acupuncture. I would recommend others to look into it if you’re uncomfortable with western medicine or surgeries, but you do need to make sure that you see someone who is licensed and knows what they’re doing.

Hope this helps. I feel really fortunate that I found the acupuncturist and naturopath that I did and wish you all the best of luck on this difficult journey!
Bailey

[HonestBabe]

#1062642

Here’s my update with Chinese herbs and acupuncture. Yes, the treatments did help me, but I was not able to sustain the improvement. I don’t have Graves, I have hyperthyroidism due to toxic nodules. I was on Chinese herbs and acupuncture treatment for 2 months and my TSH jumped from .03 to .45. Everybody was elated and even my endo was impressed, saying that this was not a ‘typical bounce.’ But 8 weeks later on same treatment, I dropped down to .05. My acupuncturist doubled the herb formula, thinking I needed more to recover. Ten weeks later, my TSH level went up from .05 to .10. What a disappointment! When I stopped the herbs, I dropped so low the lab couldn’t measure it. So, yes, the acupuncture/herbs do have an affect and can help, but for me the improvement didn’t last. The herbs are designed to dissolve the nodules but maybe mine are just too stubborn and need something more powerful. But I’m glad I explored it even if the end result wasn’t what I expected. I learned so much through the experience. Now I’m facing the choice of surgery or RAI for results. I’ve done all the research and consultations. So, … as they say, ‘tomorrow comes the song.’

[angelace]

#1062643

Hello everyone, my sister has been diagnosed with Graves. I’ve joined the group in hopes that I can learn more about her illness. I’m not sure that the alternative medicine is the best treatment for all, but I know that if nothing else the simplicity of hope can aid in recovery. Whether it’s herbal Chinese, acupuncture, meditation or praising your God. These activities can in my opinion give positive results. If nothing else it will fill the slots where someone could be developing caustic attitudes out of fear and anger. Stress can add to the issues of any illness and I believe many of the non-traditional methods, even if they do not directly remedy an illness. They can certainly relieve the stress associated with it. I was once told to live, love, laugh and search for a greater purpose beyond my own existence. It’s my sis that has the illness, but she was told the same thing and I am so proud that she has always tried to live by these values. I’ll pray for her everyday and encourage her to try any alternative method that gives her continued hope.

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